Episode 5

full
Published on:

19th Dec 2024

Catherine Foot | Phoenix Insights

How can we transform the national conversation around what it means to live longer better lives? How do we avoid drowning in nuance when trying to understand complex systems? What does it take to relentlessly pursue a single issue in order to bring about change? And how can you build a coalition to bring others on board?

Join Peter Barker in conversation with Catherine Foot, the Director of Phoenix Insights - a think tank set up to transform the way society responds to the possibilities of longer lives.

We hope you enjoy, rate, review and share this episode - and we encourage you to join the conversation with any comments and questions!

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📕 This week's recommendations are 'Influence' by Adam Stones and 'What We Owe Each Other: A New Social Contract' by Minouche Shafik

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Visit us at www.orinococomms.com | Contact me at peter@orinococomms.com | Join our community and subscribe to our newsletter at orinococomms.substack.com | Tell us what you think bit.ly/orinoco-speakpipe_pod

Transcript
Speaker:

What's been really important is

when if you've got something

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that you want to tell a lot of people,

you need to find

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as many people as possible

who also want to tell people that thing

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so that you can work together with a hope

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that the result will be greater than

the sum of its, of its individual parts.

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So it's a it's an exercise

in coalition building, movement building,

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and then working through those sort

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of classic new media, old media

kind of channels.

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Welcome to Research

Unraveled, the podcast,

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where we explore the niche, impactful

world of research communications.

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We're looking at the complex

that lies at the heart of this

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particular field,

and hearing from communications experts

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about how they navigate

and overcome will unravel that complexity.

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Research unraveled

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is brought to you by me, Peter Barker,

owner of Orinoco Communications,

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an agency where we specialize in working

with research based organizations.

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This is the last episode of the year,

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which means we're halfway

through the first series.

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And so I would like to take a moment

to say

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thank you to everyone

who's been listening so far.

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Thank you

especially to those of you who've written

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or sent voice memos in response

to the first couple of episodes.

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That is exactly what we want

from this podcast to hear from you,

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our fellow members of the research comms

community, about your challenges

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and concerns and also successes.

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So please do keep those messages coming.

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I'd also like to say

that is the end of the year draws near

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Orinoco Communications.

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We're looking ahead to 2025

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and we're keen to forge

new creative partnerships with research

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organizations,

projects, studies, consortiums

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anybody

ultimately who could do with some support

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and sharing their research

with the wider world,

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whether that's help with strategy

or audience research

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and or content creation,

such as videos, animations or podcasts.

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We would love to hear from you.

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So do get in touch by the usual methods

outlined in the episode notes.

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For this last episode of the year,

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I am joined by Catherine Foote.

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Catherine is a research and policy

specialist in aging and longevity.

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More specifically,

she is the director of Phoenix Insights,

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a think tank that was set up to transform

the way society

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responds

to the possibilities of longer lives.

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That means that using research

to prompt debate

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and conversation and inspire action

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in order to make better, longer

lives a reality for all of us.

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What's particularly interesting

about Phoenix Insights is that it

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was set up by a commercial company,

Phoenix, the UK's largest

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long term retirement and savings business.

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Most of the time when we talk

about research, communications

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on this podcast and elsewhere,

we probably thinking about

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academic settings

often linked to higher education.

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So I was really curious to hear

about Catherine's experience

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of working at a research organization

that's linked to a commercial enterprise.

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In our conversation, we talk about how

that compares with working in nonprofits,

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which is what Catherine had always done

previously in her career.

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We also talk about how to avoid drowning

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in the soup of complexity,

a lovely phrase that Catherine uses

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and the need to find a single focus

if you want to bring about change.

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We also talk about the ways

in which our audiences often

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interpret messages in ways

that perhaps we hadn't anticipated.

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So how we need to be flexible

in our approach and open to those

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new interpretations when we carry out

communications campaigns?

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I'll be back at the end

with some final messages of the year,

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but for now,

I'll leave you with that conversation.

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Catherine,

thank you so much for joining me today.

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I think before we do anything else,

I would love to just hear a bit

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about what Phoenix Insights is and

what kind of research you're doing there.

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Great. I'm delighted to be here.

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Thank you so much for the invitation,

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Peter Phoenix Insights

is essentially a think tank.

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I think that's always an imperfect moniker

for anything,

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because no two think tanks are

the same, are they?

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But my version of a think tank.

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My particular flavor

at Phoenix Insights is,

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a think tank that sits inside

a big pensions company,

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Phoenix Group, one of Britain's biggest,

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long term savings and pensions companies,

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and is seeking essentially to help the

company play a kind of system leadership

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role about the future of retirement for

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for upcoming generations of retirees.

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It's really a recognition that all is

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not well for the future of people's

pensions.

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And retirements, particularly

as you get, into younger generations.

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And there are lots of things

that need to be done about that.

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Phoenix group wanted to play its part.

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I think, as a kind of a system leader,

as I say, as a sort of, you know, shaper

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of the national conversation

as an advocate for change.

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And that's what I'm doing through

Phoenix Insights.

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That's fantastic.

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And so the the kind of research

that you're

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doing

sounds sort of social science. Is it.

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Yeah.

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What kind of stuff that you're producing.

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It's a real mixture.

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We work in partnership with some excellent

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other think tanks, academic departments,

research units up and down

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the country, also sort of research

consultancy sometimes too.

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So it's a mixture of economic modeling,

sometimes some sort of projecting forward,

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you know, what might be future look like

and what can we do about it.

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Policy analysis, trying to think about,

you know, what are the kind of

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policy solution, opportunities

and how might you cost them and

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evaluate the benefits of them.

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And also your classic the the quantitative

surveys and qualitative research

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and then, you know, surveys, focus

groups, interviews with, with people,

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both kind of experts

as well as individuals themselves,

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experts in their own lives, of course.

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And then we also do deliberative work.

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So where we spend sort of quality time

with members of the public to

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debate an issue, you know, what's

what's the future of the state pension

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going to be like?

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What should it be like,

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to get their opinions into the

into that policy conversation, too.

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So you're

you're working with members of the public

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in order to sort of sculpt,

to inform the research that you're doing.

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But it's not members of the public

who are your primary audience.

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Isn't who you looking to reach

with the reports that you produce?

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And so.

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I mean,

I guess it is, in in quite classic terms,

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it's the corridors of power,

you know, but but drawn quite broadly.

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So it is Westminster and Whitehall,

but it's also business leaders,

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the industry,

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the time in the pensions and savings

industry and also large employers

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who of course, are a big part of our,

of our pensions and retirement system.

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Is there any you mentioned that you work

with sort of academic groups

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and so on to do the research itself,

but I think probably quite

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a lot of the people who are listening to

this will be working

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in all likelihood, at academic institutes

and so on.

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Are there any fundamental differences

or any differences that you've encountered

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working for a think tank that is embedded

within a commercial organization

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in the way that you do things

or the purpose or anything, that

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that would be sort of interesting

for people to

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to note that might differ from what

how they do their work.

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I think. Probably absolutely.

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And like I say, I think no.

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Two think or, or research

organizations are the same.

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I think I think for me, this perhaps isn't

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isn't related to the fact

that we sit inside a commercial company.

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But I think one important thing is that

we're a campaigning oriented think tank,

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you know, so the goal is a social change

is policy change is is sort of provoking

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conversation and action is instead of

influencing decision makers.

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So so when we seek to understand

when we do research

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that seeks to understand,

it is absolutely in service of,

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you know,

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decisions and action and influencing,

influencing those policy makers.

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So, you know, I'm always keen

to avoid that trap of research.

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That is, if you like, the sort of ever

more beautiful articulation of the scale

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and nature of the problem

and doesn't get you into so what?

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So what do we do about it? And who should

who should do something about it?

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So so there's that I think

the commercial company

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side of things for me,

I mean they took action.

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I my background's in charities and,

and not for profit, think tanks.

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So this was a a big leap into the unknown

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coming into the private sector that I took

three years ago, taking this job.

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I think the, the,

the intellectually the traction is.

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Well, it's a difference

sort of legitimacy, isn't it.

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So so so so potentially

you are you're a different beast.

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And I wonder what that gives you to

the audiences you're trying to implement.

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So so given that I think industry and

business need is a part of the solution,

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I just thought, well, okay,

what if I'm sort of one of them?

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What will that feel like and be like

for the influence of out of our messages.

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So I think that's one thing.

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And then I think

probably finally the other thing

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that's that sort of material

about being inside a commercial company

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is, is a bit

like if I was the sort of think

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tank bit of a big service delivery charity

like the Red cross or something

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like that,

it's it's the fact that you're in

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something bigger that can take action

itself that isn't just,

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thinking and talking,

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you know, you're,

you're part of an organization

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that can put its money where its mouth is

in some sense, and be seen

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to be positively, positively acting

to solve the problems that you're raising.

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And and you know, and acting

on the solutions that you're proposing.

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So again,

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that just gives you a different sort of,

okay, you're not just here to us.

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You demand things

and you're not just a talking shop.

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There's something else you're part of.

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And I think that's potentially valuable

and powerful too.

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And so you said those were questions

that you were kind of asking yourself

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when you made the transition of,

will this make a difference?

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Being embedded within a large,

respected commercial organization?

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I mean, has it from your experience

so far made a difference

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in terms of sort of access,

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I suppose, to the policymakers

and their willingness to to hear you out?

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I think so, I think it has.

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I mean, I think, I think I'm a bit

of an old fish in this, in this world.

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I think I think when you do try and,

you know, create these sort of

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I guess it sounds a bit grand, but

kind of, you know, sort of sort of sector

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spanning or boundary spanning

kind of roles and, and be from,

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you know, be from multiple different

backgrounds

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and have multiple different sorts

of simultaneous

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legitimacy that you're trying

to trying to kind of embody

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whether or not

you pull that off all the time

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or whether or not

you're just it's more easy to sort of

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put you in one camp or the other

and be understood in one way or the other.

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I think probably happens too, sometimes,

but I definitely think I'm in.

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I'm in rooms I wouldn't otherwise be,

which works both ways.

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I mean, rooms with commercial people

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that I wouldn't otherwise be if I

if I'd been an independent charity.

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And equally, I'm in rooms

where I'm the only officially sort of,

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you know, commercial voice

in a room of academic experts and,

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and think tanks because of the quality

and the type of work that we do.

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So I think it works both ways.

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And I think sometimes it's working.

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I'm sure it is no doubt there are

challenges associated with what you do.

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And as you know, the theme of this,

this podcast is around

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complexity

and the different types of complex,

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complex challenges that people face in

that their research communications role.

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So what for you

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at Phoenix Insights work

in this kind of commercial environment?

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What a.

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And I suppose

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not just the fact that it's a commercial,

sort of operation, as it were.

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But but the subject matter

that you're dealing with as well,

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are there any kind of

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particular complexities

that you face on a day to day basis? You.

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Absolutely, absolutely.

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I mean, I say I'm a I'm a campaigning

orientated think tank, and I am

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but as

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a sort of human being, as an individual,

I love,

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you know, building

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my understanding of these complex systems

that I'm trying to influence.

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And I'm endlessly curious about how

interesting that that connects to that.

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And I don't know enough about that.

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So let me go in and learn about that.

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And I guess a big kick out of slowly

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over the course of, I'm sure, multiple

lifetimes, but at least my own lifetime,

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you know, putting the pieces of the jigsaw

together about what is shaping people's

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financial security.

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And personally, I, I love that.

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I think I was raised

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with that sort of value, like,

you know, above all else, ask, ask why.

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And try,

you know, seek to seek to understand.

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And so that's it's very deeply for me

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personally intention was with, with

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you know, wanting

to actually have social impact and,

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and achieve policy influence

because you kind of got,

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you got to get off the fence

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and you got to choose the holes

you're going to rise and,

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and the argument you're going

to, you're going to push which some.

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Yeah.

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Which isn't, which isn't always easy

because also I think because you know,

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think think tanks so often they,

they trade on their expertise don't they.

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So they do trade on us.

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We understand. Aren't we clever.

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You know,

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look at look at what we understand

and look at what we've sort of worked out.

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And so that does sit in tension

sometimes with okay.

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So what's the answer.

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So you know what one thing realistically

in the next 12 months, 18 months,

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what one bit of legislation,

you know, what one change, should we make?

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Because no one thing is going to solve

this enormous, complex system.

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So, so of course, now

I think we need to be trading on

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on judgment and on ideas and on and on

and on getting off, getting off the fence.

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You know,

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what is the a part of this complex system

that's going to get traction in today's

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politics,

that's going to have, on balance,

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probably a good or greatest possible

positive effects.

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What also is the thing

that will land is coming from you.

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You know, that is the part of this issue

that you can legitimately campaign for.

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So I think I think that's that's a

that's a sort of perennial challenge

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because I think, you know, there's there's

so much, so much of a leap of faith

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that, you know,

you're on very not only for me personally

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comfortable, fun, ground exploring

and uncovering and understanding,

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but you're also on quite solid,

quite small of academic ground on you.

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You know, you're unsure ground is it?

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You know you can do quality work

that deepens your understanding of this,

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of this problem.

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It's a bit of a leap of faith,

and there's a lot of judgment.

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Unless you're going to be running

three years of national pilots,

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before you, before you can be sure

you can't really be sure what

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what needs to be done about something

or what the right answer is.

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It needs to be, you know, so that's

I think that's a that's a challenge.

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Yeah.

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Go on.

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Well, I was just going to say, well,

first thing I when we spoke last around

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this subject, used the phrase,

you know, you.

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Yeah.

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As you said, the tension between,

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being attracted

to nuances of this kind of research

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but not wanting to sort of

just be submerged

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in the soup of complexity,

which I thought was a lovely it's.

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I love it now.

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I love the internet, but

it's not going to change the world, is it?

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No, no.

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And so how are your your,

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well, so so the way to, to get out to

that is then to, to pick something.

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I guess you just have to choose something

at some point.

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Yeah.

You know, and commit to it, as you said.

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And how, you know,

how are your employers in terms of sort

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of giving you the autonomy,

I suppose, to, to make that that choice?

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Yeah.

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No, I, I'm, I'm sort of I'm, I wouldn't

call myself a free agent certainly, but I

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yeah, I'm know,

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I'm sort of, given a lot of,

you know, a lot of autonomy.

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Actually, I quite like that

about the private sector,

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as it turns out, in comparison

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to some experiences

I've had in the charity sector,

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you know, there's that,

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that there's a lot of autonomy

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given to the leaders

inside these inside these companies.

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But there's lots of great experts

in pension systems,

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you know, people who've worked for decades

in this industry.

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I never have, who I'm able to sort of

call on and have really,

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really interesting debates,

really interesting debates about,

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of course, the other side of

of choosing something for me,

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which is also

sometimes a little difficult, is you then

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stuck with it and you've got to be kind

of relentless and repetitive about it

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if you're really going to,

to create that change.

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And, and I think, there's something for me

about, you know, if,

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if actually where you spend your days

and drags

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you weeks is with people that you see

quite a lot,

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people that you see quite regularly,

you know, your close network of colleagues

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and stakeholders,

you can feel a bit boring

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and a bit kind of, oh, God, no,

you know, this not this old thing again.

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But you have to

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you have to try

and make your peace with that,

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I think, because actually, of course,

the job isn't just saying this stuff

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multiple times.

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Of the people that know you well, it's

trying to find the people that don't yet

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know you and aren't yet taking action

and haven't yet heard this issue,

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you know, a million times over.

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And so is there any sort of examples

that you have of times

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where you've taken that leap, committed

to, to, to a single kind of campaign

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or cause or message

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that you, you know, that you're

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particularly proud of

or that you feel like,

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okay, that was something that was worth

committing to.

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And we followed it through and got some

really interesting insights and results.

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And hopefully impactful, changes

off the back of it.

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Well, it's really, it's really live,

actually, that I'm in the middle of one.

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So, so I guess the way

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I'd like to answer that question, I think,

is, is thinking about something I'm

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still really quite early in, so I hope it

will, you know, result in impact.

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But it's, it's

this debate about automatic enrollment.

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The biggest example of kind of defaults,

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nudge theory in action in public policy,

pretty much globally in this,

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in the world where we in the UK introduced

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defaults, entrants

into, into a workplace pension.

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So you're in it without knowing it

and you're allowed to opt out,

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but you'll all by default opted in

and it came in so gradually.

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But it is kept

came in over the last ten years or so.

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And what's become apparent is,

is that default was probably set too low.

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And it's not actually going to result

in, work by various different

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types of benchmarks are adequate

decent pensions for people.

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So the debate now is

what's the right level.

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So it's currently set at 8%.

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A combination between your yourself

contributing to your salary and your

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and your employer.

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And and so that there will be an answer

there'll be a number

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the that we'll get to.

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But there's huge complexity about,

you know, people on low incomes about what

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what income threshold

you start and this, this policy,

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about, you know,

what do you do it from the first person

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to somebody who's earnings at the moment

is only only kicks in once.

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You earning

10,000, pounds a year, for instance,

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what can people afford,

what can business afford?

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What might the impact on wages

if business feel this is unaffordable.

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And I need to find savings elsewhere

in a really complex stuff.

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And I'm in the weeds at the moment of

with all sorts of people in industry

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and at the think tanks playing around

with, well, what if it was, you know,

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here's our smorgasbord of, of options that

that could improve outcomes for people.

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What if it was these three things?

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What would be the pros

and cons of that kind of that collection

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of answers

and that single number at the heart of it?

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And I

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think we'll continue to,

to play around with it.

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And that's where you see this mixture,

this complex mixture of both research

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and, and policy judgment all happening

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and interacting with each other with,

you know, with each other

371

:

and with with themselves

all at the same moment when an issue is

372

:

right, issue is, is, is, is actively

on the political table,

373

:

but the answer is not yet been selected.

374

:

And that's a fun, busy and

and challenging time where

375

:

what more research is continues

to be needed and continues to be done

376

:

at the same time as politicians beginning

to define some choices more acceptable

377

:

than others and, you know, some

some options more acceptable than others.

378

:

So we're in a, in it.

379

:

It's definitely live life for me

at the moment.

380

:

In the middle of that just now.

381

:

That sounds so interesting.

382

:

What would your expectation be

when you kind of come

383

:

to the end of that piece of research,

is that you will have

384

:

a very specific policy recommendation

that you can take to the policymakers.

385

:

Is that.

386

:

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

387

:

Because they, they

388

:

they didn't want you to turn up

with millions of possibilities

389

:

and hand them over and say,

okay, we've done our done our work here.

390

:

They, they, they want you to guide them.

391

:

They do.

392

:

And they also want as many people

to be coming

393

:

to the same answer as possible, I think.

394

:

Yeah, because pensions policy decisions

last for decades.

395

:

And so you really need

quite broad consensus.

396

:

You can't muck about

with this sort of thing

397

:

every few years

398

:

and change your mind

and go back and forward again,

399

:

because what are you telling people about

about their, you know, what what

400

:

security are you giving them about their

their long term future?

401

:

So, so it's it's both a specific answer,

but it's also one that as many people

402

:

as possible share.

403

:

So there's

a lot of a lot of collaboration,

404

:

you know, a collaborative collaborative

work and collaborative conversation

405

:

I think needs to happen

406

:

before we end in as many rooms

as possible, start saying the same thing.

407

:

And the work that goes into that.

408

:

I mean, that, as an example, sounds

409

:

very sort of,

I suppose numbers focused in a way.

410

:

It's kind of, you know, crunching

a lot of numbers, I should imagine,

411

:

speaking to economists and so on

and working out, you know, as you say,

412

:

the intricacies of sort of at what point

the auto enrollment starts kicking in,

413

:

what a reasonable amount is to make sure

that people are protected in retirement.

414

:

On the other hand,

you mentioned that you do

415

:

deliberative research

and asking people, I guess

416

:

with lived experience, I mean, everybody,

I suppose, have lived experience

417

:

of getting older just because it's one of

inevitable parts of being, being alive.

418

:

But yeah, it

we spoke, previously about a project

419

:

that sounded really interesting

about asking people how they feel about,

420

:

what it is when they get older.

421

:

And perhaps you can talk a bit about that

as being slightly different

422

:

sort of research project,

almost with a different audience as well.

423

:

I mean, I'm sure policymakers

were involved as an audience too,

424

:

but that was a bit more public facing,

wasn't it?

425

:

Very much so. Very much so.

426

:

And it was one of the one of the ways

in which I was so keen to start.

427

:

Our work,

launching this new, this new think tank.

428

:

And we spent

429

:

we spent six months right at the start

going off down the country as well.

430

:

It was sort of Covid.

431

:

A lot of it was online.

432

:

It was sort of early and tail end of tail

end to the pandemic, but but virtually

433

:

up and down the country, people

from all sorts of backgrounds, income,

434

:

you know, income levels, different forms

of, of advantage and disadvantage,

435

:

different life experiences,

different ages to talk to them about.

436

:

Essentially the sort of the jump off

point was more

437

:

people are going to start living longer

generationally.

438

:

We've had this sort of stalling and life

439

:

expectancy just recently,

which is a sea tragedy.

440

:

But but generally generationally,

it remains the case

441

:

that wages are living longer

than, than we used to.

442

:

And what does that feel like? What do you

443

:

how do you react when you reflect on that

and where does your mind go?

444

:

And we did all sorts of of deep work

to try and explore that with people.

445

:

We got them to understand rooms together

on shelves, to be interviews.

446

:

We got them writing letters to their,

younger selves and their older selves.

447

:

We got them interviewing their own friends

448

:

and family and and colleagues

in the workplace to gather other respects.

449

:

It's got them doing

all sorts of different types of work.

450

:

And then towards the end of the process,

pull them together and ask them, okay, so,

451

:

what here do you feel most passionate

needs to change the most in

452

:

what do we really need to do

and what do you feel within that?

453

:

What do you feel most optimistic

and excited about about this prospect?

454

:

Because I think that's,

455

:

you know, part of the kind

of the sort of golden thread to, to a lot

456

:

of what I do is that is that living longer

isn't a shouldn't

457

:

be perceived as a sort of crisis

of the public finances.

458

:

This is like literally,

existentially the best thing

459

:

that's ever happened to the human race.

460

:

And and how extraordinary that we don't

that we don't treat it as such,

461

:

but we treat it

as a sort of problem to be solved.

462

:

So when we did this work with people,

they came up with lots of things.

463

:

But one thing that that they told us

and that they together concluded,

464

:

which I thought was just beautiful,

was this idea that maybe

465

:

if you're going to live for longer,

you're essentially going to be sort of

466

:

you're living healthier,

you're going to be middle aged for longer.

467

:

This isn't a this isn't a story.

Being could hold on for longer.

468

:

This is a story of what

a friend of mine calls the big middle.

469

:

Then perhaps you've got time

to, in middle age to be something else.

470

:

And somebody use that that language

for something else or do something else.

471

:

And out of that has spawned

a much more public facing project

472

:

for us called

the Careers Can Change campaign,

473

:

which is trying to tell more stories

about positive

474

:

examples of pivots that people make

in their working lives, of shifts

475

:

that people have made, reinventions

that they've made at 40, 50, 60, 70.

476

:

In their career.

477

:

Now, of course, the kind of, you know,

the kind of policy wonk, logic for that is

478

:

we know that people,

479

:

need to be supported to work for as long

as they as long as they want to and can.

480

:

And that's difficult for people

that people leave the labor market

481

:

because they,

they want something that isn't

482

:

there as either they've changed

or their that jobs have changed.

483

:

And if they do that, they'll be able

to save more into their pensions and,

484

:

you know, will sort of contribute

to our, to our overall fundamental goal.

485

:

But but it came from this place

of optimism and excitement

486

:

and deep deliberation

that I think gives it,

487

:

gives me a confidence

that this is something that

488

:

that people value

and need and desire support to be inspired

489

:

and practical support,

which we're also now seeing in place

490

:

in all sorts of different ways,

with lots of fabulous partners

491

:

around the country to be able to take

those those leaps and make those pivots.

492

:

So yeah, that's not

493

:

that's certainly not, you know, that's

you never going to see that in, in

494

:

the budget announcement this week.

495

:

That's not that's not

that's not a policy answer.

496

:

Although I think there's a there's a role

for policy in how we get ways.

497

:

God's advice to others.

498

:

It's it is, as you say. Exactly.

499

:

It's a different it's

a different take on this and that.

500

:

That actually is is another reason

why I was quite excited to join,

501

:

join a company that they're quite up

for talking directly to people.

502

:

They're quite used to talking directly

to people.

503

:

And lots of these sort of, you know, are,

you know,

504

:

the kind of ivory tower thinktanks

that I've worked in up to now.

505

:

They don't have that route to people.

506

:

They don't have a, you know, a budget to

talk to people or a mechanism to talk to.

507

:

You don't have customers that are members,

you know. Yeah.

508

:

So, so doing some of that work I think

was really, really important to me.

509

:

And of course, it's

just a wonderful opportunity to get into,

510

:

as you say, lived experience.

511

:

But people's people's

512

:

real lives and reflections,

which of course is at the heart of this.

513

:

And if you spend your time with numbers

and with economic modeling,

514

:

that's a very important

515

:

and refreshing and humanizing activity

to get yourself involved, isn't it?

516

:

Yeah.

517

:

And it sounds like such a wonderful

project and a really, you know, it's a

518

:

it's a sort of a small

519

:

tweak, I guess, to, to,

to the messaging around getting older.

520

:

But I just think, you know,

521

:

making people aware that theoretically

at least there is a possibility

522

:

to, as you say, be a different person

from, from middle aged upwards.

523

:

And then I suppose, as you say,

the policy aspect is about making sure

524

:

that the opportunities are actually there,

not just sort of theoretically,

525

:

but but actually.

526

:

So yeah, I was reading yesterday

527

:

about somebody who became a foster carer

at the age of 75.

528

:

She's talking about what a sort of

transformative experience that was.

529

:

And you know, that

not something that you sort of consider

530

:

making such a radical change

at that at that time of your life.

531

:

But the possibilities are there.

532

:

And so how are you?

533

:

So you were using the stories

that you, you, you've got

534

:

from this deliberative research in order

to, to kind of generate the campaign.

535

:

But how is the campaign

536

:

being those stories being told back

to people who you want to hear them?

537

:

Who was the audience for that,

for that campaign?

538

:

Yeah.

539

:

And how are you going

540

:

about kind of communicating

that positive, optimistic message?

541

:

So. Well, we're trying to,

I guess, convene

542

:

lots of, lots of like minded individuals

and organizations

543

:

and then elevate our collective voice

through, you know, social media,

544

:

through PR, through running new webinars

and events and, and so on.

545

:

So what's been really important, really,

I think, is

546

:

when if you've got something

that you want to tell a lot of people,

547

:

you need to find

as many people as possible

548

:

who also want to tell people that thing

so that you can work, work

549

:

together with it

with a, with a hope that the some will be.

550

:

Yes, the result will be greater

than some of its, of its individual parts.

551

:

So so it's a it's an exercise

in coalition building movement building

552

:

I suppose broadly is how I would

how I would phrase it.

553

:

And then working through those sort of

classic classic media,

554

:

new media, old media kind of channels.

555

:

So that would be sort of charities,

advocacy groups and so on.

556

:

That executive. In affiliated.

557

:

Areas. Exactly.

558

:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

559

:

So we've got some great organization,

560

:

some of the more, think tank and academic

and fabulous, organization called

561

:

the Learning Work Institute, who are doing

lots of really hard, hard work.

562

:

And in this area, as well as social

enterprises, there's one called called

563

:

brave starts with work in this space

for a while, getting people access to

564

:

to to networks to explore what, what could

a career in this sector look like?

565

:

Another cool career shifters

that's been working again for a while,

566

:

trying to, support individuals

who who kind of know that know they know

567

:

they want to change paths, but

they might be quite early in that journey,

568

:

a need, all sorts of different

opportunities for reflection and support,

569

:

you know, to both reflect,

to network, to plan, to, to take action.

570

:

Yes. It's a range of range

of different organizations.

571

:

And I think I think it's one of the nice

things that that sort of disinterested,

572

:

if you like.

573

:

I mean, I'm very interested, but

574

:

but you know, sort of formerly certainly

commercially disinterested corporate

575

:

can do that kind of convening, coalition

building and elevating role.

576

:

Wonderful.

577

:

In terms

of all the challenges you face, I suppose

578

:

lots of

579

:

people that I speak to, in general,

the organizations that we work

580

:

with, are often not it's not

scientific research institutes who,

581

:

carry out incredibly complex research

about very complex topics and,

582

:

and just the subject matter alone.

583

:

The challenge there is to explain it

in an accessible way to people who,

584

:

by and large, may not have any prior

understanding of the subject at hand.

585

:

But the world that you're working

in, it feels a bit different

586

:

because I say, you know,

everybody gets older,

587

:

everybody has an opinion on what what

that experience is going to be like.

588

:

So but but are there any challenges

589

:

around that

that you know that you encounter?

590

:

Well, I suppose absolutely.

591

:

And, and I suppose

592

:

I guess the one that springs to mind

593

:

is you're right,

we all have these experiences,

594

:

but we sometimes also share

595

:

some sort of collective delusions

about about these issues.

596

:

There are some very commonly held

597

:

beliefs, aren't there in all sorts

of aspects of our lives and, and society

598

:

and public policy that sometimes I think

research needs to play a role to guide it?

599

:

Well, that's no longer true. Actually,

that might have been true.

600

:

So actually 40 years ago.

601

:

But it's not, you know, it's not true.

602

:

It's not true anymore.

603

:

Or at least

604

:

so Trump may be trying to break a chain

of logic that doesn't actually make sense.

605

:

Do you realize it's different

606

:

from from explaining an issue that perhaps

people don't think about very different?

607

:

I mean, an example of that might be,

I mean, a very high level,

608

:

the classic narrative

that, it's not pensioners we need to worry

609

:

about is young people can can lead to,

610

:

a level of work,

you know, to your instant pensions.

611

:

Okay.

612

:

Well, that's not that's not today's

that's not today's problem.

613

:

And I guess my, my, my point

and the point of

614

:

some of our work is it may be

but that it is tomorrow's problem.

615

:

And you have to take this.

616

:

You have to take action now to prevent

that problem from happening, you know.

617

:

So in that sense,

it is absolutely today's problem.

618

:

And just because, you know,

the current generation of pensioners,

619

:

2 million of whom, by the way, in the UK

live in poverty, but nevertheless on on

620

:

in average terms, thanks to, you know,

interest rates, social secure employment,

621

:

housing really low housing costs

and all that are in all sorts of reasons

622

:

over their life.

623

:

Course, many of them are in relative

financial security.

624

:

That doesn't mean you you're going to be.

625

:

That doesn't mean

the next generations are going to be.

626

:

This is not a permanent state

that we live in of of pensioners are okay.

627

:

This could actually be quite,

a quite a short term blip

628

:

in a longer history of where to be old

is to be poor.

629

:

So there's a, you know, beliefs like that,

I suppose, or,

630

:

or assumptions like that or false logic

like that is some of, some of what we do.

631

:

I mean, certainly there's a

another example would be

632

:

nobody cares about pensions,

nobody's interested in pensions.

633

:

And at one level that's absolutely true.

634

:

Of course, nobody, you know, there's

there's good evidence about how people

635

:

don't open their pension statements

and don't, you know, don't engage.

636

:

Of course, there is buzz

in a different deliberative project

637

:

I did about exploring the pensions

638

:

landscape with some with people

a couple of years ago, again, fairly

639

:

early on in our journey,

if you give people the time and space,

640

:

the overriding reaction

that you get from so many people is,

641

:

oh my God, I why haven't I been told this?

642

:

Well, how do I not know that

643

:

this is how it works and that

this is what I need to be thinking about?

644

:

For myself and almost a sense of hang

on, somebody should have told me this,

645

:

this stuff.

646

:

So there is, if you like.

647

:

I think there is

huge latent demand for this.

648

:

So this knowledge and this and this issue

amongst amongst people.

649

:

So again, you know, it's not

650

:

it's not incorrect to say

people don't engage in their pensions,

651

:

but it leads you to a logic of giving up

trying that I think is really false.

652

:

So, so yes, I think,

653

:

I think in social science offering often

the sorts of work that you do,

654

:

as you say, it's not explaining something

that's really difficult,

655

:

but it can be breaking down

some unhelpful assumptions and myths,

656

:

if you like, that pervade society

and that are preventing action.

657

:

Really interesting.

658

:

And I think, well,

I mean, the challenge of making

659

:

policymakers, everybody, the public to,

I suppose, look beyond the sort of short,

660

:

short term challenges is obviously,

we know

661

:

from other issues like the climate crisis

and so on.

662

:

It's a very, very difficult thing.

663

:

Absolutely. Wasn't Winston Churchill

that was his quote.

664

:

You know, democracy is the the worst form

of government apart from all the others.

665

:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

666

:

Wonderful.

667

:

And so I think just one final thing

I'd like to talk about

668

:

relating to the specific work

that you do at Phoenix Insights.

669

:

I suppose we've spoken a bit about,

you know, in order

670

:

to get out of the soup of complexity,

having to pick one thing to pursue

671

:

and to, to, to investigate

with a certain amount of rigor

672

:

and to try and come up with solutions

or suggestions of how that that issue

673

:

might be dealt with.

674

:

But when it comes to the messaging around

that,

675

:

there are often as well challenges

I think, aren't there in choosing

676

:

the one message

that you want to get through,

677

:

even once you've done all the research

678

:

and you've come up with

with the hopeful solution.

679

:

Yeah, but how you convey that message

to people and the way in which they,

680

:

they respond to it is another sort of area

of challenge, isn't it?

681

:

Absolutely. No. You're absolutely right.

682

:

Yes. I've done big, complex

683

:

projects, large data sets, you know,

684

:

exploring the richness of people's

likely futures and, and these, these,

685

:

these issues of work and housing

and health and potential social care

686

:

costs and intergenerational transfers.

687

:

Are you expecting inheritance

688

:

between what's the situation for children

to try and build this rich picture?

689

:

Absolutely.

690

:

But then, you know, a year later,

you realize

691

:

actually there's just been there's

almost been a single sentence from that,

692

:

from that extraordinary volume of,

693

:

of, of, of work

that's been the thing that, that stuck.

694

:

And you can't necessarily

see that coming or predict it, can you?

695

:

I think that's right. I think,

696

:

I think

697

:

sometimes when

you're setting out on a, on a project to,

698

:

you know, you have to be able to say

to you, to people involved of people

699

:

waiting, waiting for the answer.

700

:

Well, you know, this is

this is why I'm doing it.

701

:

But I can't

I can't guarantee, I can't guarantee

702

:

I'll tell you what, it'll come out

way the work where it will land.

703

:

Absolutely.

704

:

I, I did some work a little while ago

on this phenomenon of economic inactivity.

705

:

This this issue of how we actually have

relatively low unemployment

706

:

in this country.

707

:

But we have lots of people who are not

working and not looking for work either.

708

:

So they're not technically unemployed,

because to be unemployed, you

709

:

sort of seeking work so economically

that to it's awful phrase isn't,

710

:

is this big problem in our, in our labor

market at the moment?

711

:

And, and this rising phenomenon

of, of of people being too sick to work

712

:

essentially probably

713

:

seeing all sorts of, of coverage of,

you know what, you know what

714

:

sick note Britain.

715

:

What what's going on with some with why

we we seem to be too, too sick to work

716

:

and, and there you know, you can do all

this work on what's going on, what are the

717

:

what are the issues.

718

:

But again,

I guess it comes back to the of, you know,

719

:

where do people's minds naturally go

and how do you break break that down.

720

:

I've seen so much

that equates that problem

721

:

with an instant solution.

722

:

That is okay.

723

:

So if would you seek the answers.

724

:

The NHS, you know we we lead to an answer.

725

:

You know so

so this is a problem of NHS waiting lists.

726

:

So this is a problem of you know

of occupational health.

727

:

And and so I've had to work sometimes

quite hard to make the case that if the,

728

:

if this is the sort of,

you know that the condition is, is being

729

:

too sick to work, that doesn't mean that

the treatment is health care treatment.

730

:

The treatment can be in the labor market.

731

:

It can be about the work that we do,

the intensity of the work

732

:

that we do, the nature of the work

that we do,

733

:

how we do that work,

and the quality of it to the labor market.

734

:

Answers to in-work sickness, rather

than the kind of health system answers.

735

:

Yeah. So I think you're

absolutely right that some,

736

:

I'm sure,

737

:

I'm sure all of us that have done, done,

you know, complex work

738

:

that's been kind of mis summarized

in a, in a media article or,

739

:

or or the person that you've,

740

:

you know, the person that you farm

that you've been trying to influence,

741

:

whether it has

some has picked the thing that they

742

:

that relates to something

they heard about yesterday

743

:

rather than the thing

that you're really trying

744

:

to really try and talk to them,

talk to them about.

745

:

And, yeah, I think it's honestly, it's

been one of the, one of the biggest,

746

:

you know,

constant lessons of my, of my career

747

:

in research, communication and, and,

and in thinktank world,

748

:

which is sort of really understand respect

and understand your audience, you know,

749

:

because interpretation is in the,

in, in the, in the eyes

750

:

into a person is not in

is not in how you you frame the issue.

751

:

100%. Yeah.

752

:

I think sort of just being open

to open to being surprised,

753

:

I suppose, by the things

that seem to resonate that

754

:

perhaps you didn't realize

were the things that are likely to.

755

:

Yeah, exactly.

756

:

And I guess, yeah, you only know that

through listening, to the responses

757

:

rather than just to sending that

in one direction, isn't it.

758

:

In fact,

deliberative research comes back in.

759

:

Well, that's been absolutely fascinating.

760

:

I'm not going to, let you go quite yet,

because I do have a couple

761

:

of additional questions.

762

:

The same ones that I ask all my guests.

763

:

So the first one is, do you have

a particular piece of communications

764

:

related advice that you received

765

:

in the course of your career

that you kind of come back to most often?

766

:

Absolutely.

767

:

I mean, yes, it is,

it is a constant reminder

768

:

to when you are passionate about an issue

and you think you have an answer,

769

:

something you want to tell people to just

770

:

make sure that you don't just concentrate

on what you want to say,

771

:

but you properly concentrate on

who are you trying to say that to

772

:

and what do they care about before you

launch into your, your speechifying?

773

:

Yeah.

774

:

Yeah.

775

:

Wonderful.

That's very, very useful advice.

776

:

Thank you.

777

:

And the final question, then,

778

:

is there a book that you have read again

over the course of your time

779

:

working in comms that has had a sort of

780

:

particular impact on

you you'd like to recommend?

781

:

Gosh, there's lots

and I yeah, a couple of years ago,

782

:

I really enjoyed a book by a guy

called Adam Stones called influence.

783

:

I don't know if you've come across it

wonderful, really practical set of advice.

784

:

I think the tagline is like,

so you want to change the world,

785

:

but how do you get the world on board?

786

:

Just thinking about, you know,

787

:

how can you construct that

kind of set of messages and that argument

788

:

and that and that story that will land,

and how can you understand your audiences?

789

:

It's a lovely it's a really,

really practical little, little guidebook.

790

:

And then in terms

of the sort of policy area

791

:

and so a social policy that I, that I work

on, something that really resonated

792

:

with me in

the last few years has been the,

793

:

the director of the London School

of Economics, Maneesh

794

:

Shafik, who wrote a book called

What We Owe Each Other.

795

:

Which is I think is a, it's a,

796

:

an absolute masterclass in social science

research, communication, setting out,

797

:

you know, digestible chapters,

huge landscapes of

798

:

of social and economic policy

and how the modern world and politicians

799

:

need to be thinking about the tradeoffs

inherent in who owes what here

800

:

and who needs to pay for what to get,

what sorts of what sort of outcomes.

801

:

But, I think it's

a, it's a it's a beautiful example of how

802

:

to synthesize an extraordinary amount of,

of knowledge and expertise into something

803

:

that that can actually resonate

with with the political class.

804

:

That's wonderful.

805

:

So prime example of sort of managing

to extricate himself

806

:

from the super complexity

to come up with herself.

807

:

Yeah. Sorry. You did. She did. Yeah, yeah.

808

:

That's brilliant.

Thank you so much, Katherine.

809

:

Thank you so much. So I really, really

enjoyed the conversation.

810

:

What an enjoyable conversation that was.

811

:

Thank you so much to Catherine

for taking the time to speak with me.

812

:

I would love to hear what you make of this

episode, listeners.

813

:

I'll be honest, it's quite hard

getting people to respond, and engage.

814

:

We know people are listening,

which is great.

815

:

Thank you for tuning in,

but we really would like to have

816

:

an active relationship

with with our listeners.

817

:

So I think what I'll do from now on

is to ask direct questions

818

:

or a direct question at the end of each

episode to help steer the conversation.

819

:

And so, in response to Catherine's

comments about interpretation, my question

820

:

this week is, has there ever been a time

when your audience interpreted

821

:

your message in a way that was unexpected

and different to what you had in mind

822

:

when you started

your communications campaign?

823

:

Perhaps they're interpretation

made you reevaluate

824

:

your own priorities or perception

of what mattered?

825

:

Let us know.

826

:

I'd love to know.

827

:

Email us.

828

:

Leave a voice note

829

:

or just get involved with the conversation

either on LinkedIn for now.

830

:

Blue sky where I am semi present,

831

:

I would say using the hashtag research

unraveled.

832

:

I look forward to hearing from you

and sharing your experiences

833

:

and comments in our next

episode of Research Unraveled Extra.

834

:

Or I'll be joined once again by Bianca.

835

:

So that's all for this month.

836

:

Now that will be the next time

you hear from us in early:

837

:

Until then, have a wonderful break.

838

:

Happy holidays, happy Christmas.

839

:

Happy Hanukkah. And see you next year.

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About the Podcast

Research Unravelled
A podcast exploring the complex world of research communications
Welcome to Research Unravelled - a podcast exploring the impactful world of research communications.

We'll be digging into the complexity that lies at the heart of this field and hearing from expert practitioners about how they navigate or unravel that complexity.

Research Unravelled is hosted by Peter Barker and brought to you by Orinoco Communications - the creative agency where we specialise in helping research organisations to tell their stories and give their research the reach it deserves.

In addition to his monthly conversations with experts Peter will also be joined by colleague and co-host, Bianca Winter, for bonus episodes where they will respond to listeners' comments and questions and discuss the latest news from the world of research comms.

About your host

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Peter Barker

Peter is a multimedia producer with more than fifteen years experience creating documentaries, animations and other forms of digital content for TV and online. Before starting Orinoco Communications in 2016 Peter worked as a television producer and director, a job that took him all over the world, filming everywhere from NASA bases in the U.S.A. to volcanic islands in the Pacific ocean to ancient Mayan ruins in Central America. Now he has a more sedate life, living with his family by the sea on the east coast of England.